In this episode, Andy talks with Barry Wolfe, author of It’s All In Your Head: Why Psychology Doesn’t Help Your Workforce Deliver Value – And What Can. Barry is a seasoned HR executive and business leader who has built a reputation as one of the rare “HR guys who actually has a head for business.” In this frank and eye-opening conversation, Barry challenges many of the tools and ideas we’ve come to rely on in leadership and management.

Andy and Barry discuss why frameworks like Maslow’s hierarchy may be doing more harm than good, how personality assessments can become limiting narratives, and why our obsession with “fit” often backfires. But this isn’t just a critique. Barry offers an alternative in the form of Value-Centric Leadership, a model that reframes how we think about work, leadership, and results. You’ll learn about tools like The Same Page and the 4C’s of leadership that can help you lead with more clarity and purpose.

If you’re ready to challenge what you think you know about managing people (and want practical tools to lead more effectively), this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

  • “Most of the hiring tools we use today are only marginally better than chance.”
  • “We act like we’re selecting with science, but we’re often just rationalizing our preferences.”
  • “Maslow never created a pyramid. That was a marketing add-on, not a scientific insight.”
  • “Psychology gave us language, but somewhere along the way, it became the product.”
  • “What do I want to pay people to do?” becomes “What results do I want to buy from them?”
  • “We pay people to do activities, but it’s because we want to buy results.”
  • “Nobody buys verbs. People buy nouns.”
  • “Maslow had no interest in actually validating his model. He just threw it out there.”
  • “If you get married and someone asks, what are you looking for in a spouse? Would you really say the upper left box?”
  • “The guy who created the DISC assessment was also the creator of Wonder Woman.”
  • “Given the choice between thinking hard and spending money, most business leaders would rather spend money.”
  • “Part of the problem with these tools is you’re learning about science through something called marketing.”
  • “We’ve got strategic plans, core values, mission statements. What’s missing is being on the same page.”

Chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction
  • 01:45 Start of Interview
  • 02:00 Barry’s Early Career Influences and Business Perspective
  • 06:42 Why Leaders Rely So Heavily on Assessments
  • 09:25 The “Yes, Buts” of Psychological Tools
  • 15:20 What We Get Wrong About Maslow’s Hierarchy
  • 19:00 From Paying for Activities to Buying Results
  • 23:30 Connecting Project Work to Real Value
  • 24:00 Introducing The Same Page
  • 28:47 The Most Overlooked Element of Leadership
  • 33:47z Looking Ahead at AI, Automation, and the Future of Work
  • 41:22 End of Interview
  • 42:03 Andy Comments After the Interview
  • 45:19 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Barry and his work at ArgosHR.com.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

  • Episode 473 with Jeffrey Hull & Margaret Moore. They have rigorously researched what it takes to lead, and I think you’ll find their approach and findings to be a nice complement to today’s episode.
  • Episode 417 with Mary Crossan and Bill Furlong. They have deeply researched 11 dimensions of character, which has some nice alignment with the 4 C’s that Barry talked about.
  • Episode 47 with Henry Mintzberg. If you haven’t been with us since the early days, it would be easy to have missed this episode with one of the foremost curmudgeons of management. I think you’ll find his insights in episode 47 to be a helpful addition to what Barry talked about in this episode.

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If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we’ve put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We’ve helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we’d love to help you, too. It’s totally free, and it’s a great way to get a head start.

Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I’d love to help you get your PMP this year!

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Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Power Skills

Topics: Leadership, People Management, Business Psychology, Strategic HR, Hiring, Performance Management, Personality Assessments, Organizational Culture, Project Value, Team Development, Employee Experience, Decision Making

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: Summer Morning Full Version by MusicLFiles
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Energetic Drive Indie Rock by WinnieTheMoog
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

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