In this episode, Andy sits down with Julia Dhar and Kristy Ellmer, leaders at Boston Consulting Group and co-founders of its Behavioral Science Lab, authors of How Change Really Works. Julia and Kristy share why so many change efforts stall, even when the idea seemed obvious at the start.

Together they unpack the science behind leading change that sticks: the false alignment trap, the invisible “change distance” between executives and employees, and why involvement is not the same as agency. You’ll hear how context drives behavior, what it takes to earn take-up rather than assume it, and how threat, fitness, and destiny stories help change actually land. Along the way, Julia and Kristy offer practical moves you can use at work and even at home with your kids.

If you’re looking for a practical, science-based approach to leading change that truly sticks, this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

  • “There are not many guarantees in life, but I guarantee you the number one way not to solve a problem is to avoid talking about the problem.”
  • “The thing that I believe right now doesn’t have to be the thing that I believe forever, and it’s entirely possible that I can change my mind about an idea or even another person.”
  • “A really simple thing you can do is just say, instead of talking about whether or not we’re aligned, start asking ‘Do we agree?’”
  • “Successful change creates agency with the employee base, and that idea of they actually own a piece of it.”
  • “If you’re one of the senior leaders in a change effort, you need to flip it and take this perspective: I work for them.”
  • “The brain is wired to be solving for you at all times.”
  • “The idea of having a ‘useful nuisance’ on a team, kind of like the antagonist in the system, is so important.”
  • “And it turns out that in real life, if you build it, often they still don’t come.”
  • “We don’t need a business case. What we need is a take-up plan.”
  • “The questions weren’t, ‘Who caused this?’ It was all, ‘How did this happen?’”
  • “The human brain is wired for stories and symbols.”
  • “Everyone wants to be a hero. None of us want to be a victim.”

Chapters

  • 00:00 Introduction
  • 02:34 Start of Interview
  • 02:45 Embracing Uncertainty and Seeking Out Change
  • 04:18 What Competitive Debate Teaches About Change
  • 08:30 Common Change Advice That Falls Flat
  • 11:00 Involvement Versus Agency and the IKEA Effect
  • 13:45 The Invisible Divide: Understanding Change Distance
  • 16:45 Why the Gap Widens Early in a Transformation
  • 21:15 Context Drives Behavior: Building the Right Cockpit
  • 23:30 Blaming People Versus Fixing the Context
  • 26:15 Getting True Agreement, Not False Alignment
  • 30:30 Catching the False Consensus Effect
  • 34:00 The Useful Nuisance and Welcoming Disagreement
  • 35:45 Practical Ways to Increase Agency
  • 38:00 Earning Take-Up When People Don’t Show Up
  • 41:30 How Etsy Removed the Fear of Speaking Up
  • 46:05 Stories and Symbols That Make Change Stick
  • 51:15 Helping Kids Through Change and Managing Emotions
  • 54:00 Becoming a Hero Maker
  • 55:06 End of Interview
  • 55:40 Andy Comments After the Interview
  • 1:00:57 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Julia and Kristy’s work and their book at BCG.com.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

  • Episode 343 with Gary Lloyd. He wrote a book on change that uses the metaphor of being a gardener, not a mechanic.
  • Episode 342 with Krister Ungerbock. His take is that if we can change our words, we can change our teams and our organizations.
  • Episode 42 with John Kotter. Hear from the Harvard professor and change expert himself.

Chat with PMeLa

You can chat directly with PMeLa—the podcast’s AI persona—to get episode recommendations and answers to your project management and leadership questions. Visit PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com/PMeLa to chat with her.

Level Up Your AI Skills

Join other listeners from around the world who are taking our AI Made Simple course to prepare for an AI-infused future.

Just go to ai.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com. Thanks!

Join Us for LEAD52

I know you want to be a more confident leader–that’s why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It’s 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it’s all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks!

Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Business Acumen

Topics: Change Management, Leadership, Project Management, Behavioral Science, Employee Engagement, Organizational Change, Agency, Conflict, Storytelling, Transformation, Team Culture, Decision Making

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: Imagefilm 034 by Sascha Ende
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter
License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Comments are closed.